The Movement of the Points

[Roshan]

There are two sequences:

<->9<->3<->6<->9<->

<->1<->4<->2<->8<->5<->7<->1<->

The inner triangle and the other points are shown here in what is considered the direction of integration and disintegration, respectively. (The lines are in different directions for reasons to be explained later). You will see it written that 9 is the POD (point of disintegration) of 3 and 6 is its POI and 2 is the POI of 8, 5 its POD, etc.; also that 8 e.g. will integrate to 2 and stress to 5 routinely, and do so long-term on its journey up or down the levels of health. So an integrating 8 is other-oriented, compassionate, generous, and warm at 2; a disintegrating 8 is cold, avaricious, strategic, and remote at 5.

Eli is good at explaining how the routine movement of the points on a daily basis to the so-called POI will often not be a movement toward health but rather a comfort zone, basically about being in a good mood, about expediency and feeling secure. So let us imagine a low health career criminal 8 that gets a lot more loot than he expected in a burglary and also winds up killing the homeowner. He doesn't care (no movement to 2 heart/relational center) but he's scared he'll get caught (movement out of gut into head/fear center) and he starts strategizing what if's at 5.

Remaining impenitent, with part of the loot he buys presents for his friends and he also pays for one of their mother's dental work. This 8 is still ruthless (Level 7 Ruthless Outlaw) but he is buying loyalty, protection, and silence among his cohorts; he is perhaps also an antisocial social 8 and/or a beta 8 who takes care of his own and only his own. Not ALL of the gift-giving is strategic and NONE of it may consciously be so, but our 8 can't be said to be integrating Two if he doesn't care that he just killed an innocent stranger because he's not getting any healthier. So his magnanimity is a lateral movement of 8 to 2 not to be confused with any upward movement toward high health (8 L1 Magnanimous Heart).

The issue is that the 2 of 8 is built into it and serves 8's 5 and vice versa. Disintegrating 8 needs 2 to survive at 5. Someone who gets into dangerous situations all the time (and low 8s do) is inherently an immanent fugitive who has to be able to withdraw and hide (at 5) on a moment's notice. To hide you need hosts and protectors and you can buy them with your own hospitality and protection, and low 8 does this all the time. (Not to mention some 'grease my palm' charm doesn't hurt with the police). So it's not really these three discrete entities 8, 5, 2; it's a dynamic interplay making one entity (an 8). Both the 2 and the 5 are in the 8. 8 is always between 2 and 5. It's also definitely not clear what the POD and POI are; in a practical sense, the UNhealthier the 8, the more low 2 manipulative 'caring' it may show, even feel, just for the sake of survival.

Eli calls this 8 movement to 2 movement to the core and he will say 2 is at the core of 8 (and 8 at the core of 5, etc.),. In fact he calls the whole system of movement of the points core dynamics. But I don't like this term because the points move both ways; 8 moves just as much to 5 (not its 'core' but traditional 'stress point') as it does to 2. However, you will sometimes see me talk about movement to a point's core, as I did yesterday here.)

Don and Russ initially contended that the 2 would always be the POI of 8 and 5 its POD, until at a level of high average health the 8 would start integrating high 5 as its 'missing piece'. They later made the disclaimer (in print) that distinguishing between POI and POD was often a lot less clear. I very much agree, to the point that on the daily, routine level, I see the type (here, 8) as sort of an oscillation between 2 and 5. But I also think there's a lot to the initial perspective in terms of actual integration and disintegration up and down the path of health. In general, an 8 will have to integrate higher 2 before it starts integrating higher 5; also in general 8 DISintegrates down to 5 not 2 (tbcd).

[Roshan]

There are two sequences:

<->9<->3<->6<->9<->

<->1<->4<->2<->8<->5<->7<->1<->

The inner triangle and the other points are shown here in what is considered the direction of integration and disintegration, respectively.

The movementof the points on the triangle is written clockwise and in ascending order (since 9 is the alpha AND omega), and this is consistent with 'traditional' integration in the Enneagram of Personality. 9 integrates to 3, the integration point of 3 is 6, etc.

Here's why the second line follows the order it does.. This is the 'sacred geometry' of the Enneagram (or profane geometry, if you will, but here at Terra9Incognita we hope you won't ). As you can see in this numerical sequence's wiki article, the Enneagram aspect is just a puny section.

Gurdjieff didn't have any Enneagram of Personality in his system, and, as said , in 'E o P' the order of the movement of the hexad (non-triangle) points is the traditional stress movement (disintegration). 1 stresses to 4, 4 stresses to 2, 2 is the POI (point of disintegration) of 4, etc.

But also as said, the POI/POD distinction has not panned out so neatly over time. This is not surprising, since one would expect the numbers in disintegration to be the ones to go in reverse order. But they don't., which does strongly suggest that the negative aspects, "POD" and "POI", are not all that inherent.

tbcd

[Roshan]

And so we should not be that surprised that--even though Riso and Hudson only give us the levels descriptions at low health for 9 (at 9) and 9 at 6, and for 5 (at 5) and 5 at 7--the lead character in Breaking Bad, a 9 with a 5 fix, DISintegrates to a full-blown and fully functional sociopathic 3/8 'violent destroyer' by the end of the series.