Terra Incognita

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:03 pm**

Anthony wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:00 pm What I mean is that FeSi will very often do that (smile/giggle nervously) in response to disturbances in the Fe collective sentiment/'feeling.'

Well, I agree with you, which is why I said it was related to Ni PolR ('doom is such a debbie downer'), with Fe frame being obviously more prone to giggles than Te. But I'm trying to say that that little snippet I time-stamped starts to come close enough to laughing at a funeral that I doubt any FeSi with real Si development would have done that, due to the inherent ceremonial nature of Si.

So, something like: ESFJ most likely to manifest a disconnect between affect and negative subject matter because it doesn't want to be the one to poop the party, but least likely to giggle at a funeral--because that would be pooping the party in that context. Least likely, that is, unless it were a jumper.

Now here is something attending a funeral and giving a presentation replete with visuals and...let's say textuals like Allie does have in common: both are planned. So, Allie knew very well he was going to frame that presentation as here we are in an apocalyptic hellscape; thus, if that was really a nervous smile, it seems to indicate he can't even process his own material when it comes close to something remotely like 'doom'. Another possibility is he just thinks things sell better if you keep on smiling. I'm sure there are more. But whatever the main one is, I really think it's outside the scope of any not very UNhealthy ESFJ, unless it's a jumper. But why a jumper?

Obviously Allie is VERY Ti seeking but I see his Fe and Ne as virtually fused. Then because of this fusion, he has enhanced Se demo, and this is how it manifests: We're all on a magic carpet ride to the amazing wonders TI understanding will bring and this ride is on his carpet. Yeah, sure, it's our collective carpet but...it's his. And so a lot of the reason why he smiled was to somehow gloss over the downside of the trip, because he can, and if he doesn't, well, then there is no magic carpet ride, is there?

So even though our current apocalyptic hellscape is pretty much the sine qua non of his own presentation, it's not going to be processed enough--not by him and not by us--to ruin the ride.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:45 pm**

This is also from the post about why originally NeTi and not NeFe?

e-ssam wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:49 am
So I assumed NeTi that has a focus on groundedness and energy control (if that's the right word?).

Well, we're not going to get an Allie if we give Curtis Yarvin an Si pipeline. Or if we give Gavin from the Vanguard one either. I believe him to be NeTi--and he's remarkably energetically similar to Ash imo--but I haven't been able to get anyone to take an interest in confirming it. Now would be a good time to since I think Gavin and Zack are kindreds, and one of the issues with typing Allie seems to me to be that he gives some people the impression of Ne > Fe due to the similarity of FeNe to garden variety NeFi. But as I said, I think what gives NeFi its particular sensuously embodied quality is its Fe demonstrative, not its Ne frame.

And not its Se role, either. Because not Yarvin, not Ash, not Gavin, not Frank Rich, not Rian, not Becky, not Bo Burnham, not Viva Frei, not Sophia Doll Guy, not Laurie Anderson, are going to become an Allie (or for that matter a Benjamin Boyce, a Ryan Long, a Charlie Rose, or a Zack) if you ground them with an Si 'pipeline'. They're still going to have a sanctimonious nitpicking to them, one that also persists energetically, I'd bet money on it, because it's germane to 'The Debater'. And there's no reason for Si to detract from that since Si has so much focus on categorization. And it won't be Eric or Jocko either--that's some kind of bizarre Si seeking overreach beyond mere peacocking that I/we call 'Si constipation'.

There is a coldness to NeTi, an aloofness. At its worst it's a brain in a jar. At its best it's a conceptual artist, in whatever field of endeavor, due to its tireless creativity. What it isn't, not archetypally, is a lover, because NeTi is Fi PolR. And with Si's double edged sword--warmth on the one hand, bean counting on the other (and 'ceremonial' perhaps being a word that combines both) --I doubt any pipeline would mask the perception of that Fi PolR. To grasp this just remember that SiTe is Si dom too, and half of all math teachers from hell are SiTe.

So...Allie's not Fi PolR. He's everybody's boyfriend. Not friend with benefits--which NeTi excels at. Boyfriend. Until he's not. And then he 'blows a dandelion' like a bouquet of roses to the people he leaves behind so they can't say it wasn't all just so romantic, wonderful, meaningful. Allie is a heart throb. A romantic lead, starring in the movie 'we all love'. And this is something ENTP can never really be.

Because...Fi PolR.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:33 pm**

With hindsight the best way to approach which alpha extravert Allie is might have been to ask which is more likely to be PolR, Fi or Ni.

Exploring the PolR is very often the best way to decide on a type. But I didn't think about the PolR til now, both because Allie's type to me has kind of always been like wallpaper, just there, and also because it's a pretty tricky PolR. Allie's Ni PolR is rather well-masked--and I'd like us to explore why this is so (and is it even, really?). Again, I think it has something to do with the jumping, and also the extreme Ti seeking, but I'm not quite sure what...or why...

All that said, Fi PolR for Allie, it really seems just out of the question. He 'plucks our heart strings, as Anthony says. And he does so constantly, it's in the marrow of his bones. It could not be more organic. He has to have SOME way to access Fi easily. It can't be PolR. NeTi plucks our head strings.

So yeah. Maybe I should have started this whole thing with the PolR but I just didn't think of it. Live and learn. Another day, another dollar.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:05 pm**

Roshan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:53 pm

I believe I have had two NeFe yoga teachers. One of them opened his own kundalini yoga studio and the other was the head of yoga teaching at a large community center that was/is an offshoot of the Hare Krishnas. What kundalini yoga as often practiced here and now and the hare krishna movement have in common is they set out to attain the equivalent of a psychedelic experience without drugs. So in the kundalini studio this guy could and would babble on or whatever and would encourage his other teachers to do so too, it was 'anything goes'. And the hare center WAS teaching standard vinyasa practice (with the intoxicating repetitive

The goal was stimulation and as often as not the means were fantastic. For instance so many hours of kundalini would work off so much karma of my ancestors, stories of the child Krishna that were beautiful fairy tales....you can see what I mean by jumping over Ti. They genuinely leap frogged over ANY striving for logical first principles. The first principles were ALL stories, traditions. It was like sewer level Ti; the first principals were pre-logical, aboriginal Si.

Highly relevant to my question to e-ssam about why an (over)involvement with magic mushrooms should signify Si.

There is certainly some relationship, in as much as Si is always in the back pocket of Ne, but I think the seeking of hallucinogenic experience (the mind-blowing, the utterly NovEl), is first and foremost Ne. And if I had to pick a second it would be Fe, because that's where nature's cornucopia actually is.

Whereas the codification of these experiences into stories and rituals (traditions) is 'aboriginal Si'. Not the 'tripping', the entering into the hallucinogenic or even the dream time state, itself. The preparations and purifications around it, yes. The classification into mythological categories too. But not the trip itself.

Si imposes boundaries.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:21 pm**

Roshan wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:03 pm
Anthony wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:00 pm What I mean is that FeSi will very often do that (smile/giggle nervously) in response to disturbances in the Fe collective sentiment/'feeling.'
Obviously Allie is VERY Ti seeking but I see his Fe and Ne as virtually fused. Then because of this fusion, he has enhanced Se demo, and this is how it manifests: We're all on a magic carpet ride to the amazing wonders TI understanding will bring and this ride is on his carpet. Yeah, sure, it's our collective carpet but...it's his. And so a lot of the reason why he smiled was to somehow gloss over the downside of the trip, because he can, and if he doesn't, well, then there is no magic carpet ride, is there?

Yes, I agree entirely. I think you hit the nail on the head. As Fe dom and Se demo, he's the head of the board on which we all surf the waves of the collective swim and encounter the chromatic variety of Ne fish on the way—straight into the horizon of Ti understanding. If he were FeSi (non-jumping), he'd be more mindful of the integrity, the security, rather than the momentum, of the board and all of us on it and in that vein, wouldn't have smiled.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:20 pm**

Roshan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:53 pm And they form my impression of NeFe jumpers but admittedly two is a very poor statistical sampling.

My own statistical sampling is a bit larger but it's a pretty selectively biased one, since it comes mostly from the classroom.

The thing is i get both types of alpha NF jumpers as students on a semi-regular basis, and from my teacher's perspective, they both feel very differently.

I'll try to highlight some of the differences because i think they echo pretty well what is discussed in this thread so far. (And if i get any of those next year, i'll make sure to make some "over the rainbow" posts about it).

Obviously there is some degree of similarity between the twos. They both tend to have ADHD diagnosis, they are both very distractible and can't sit still and they both tend to run into trouble at school from an early age (which is often the primary reason why they end up in vocational highschool to begin with),

Typically, FeNe students manage to be both teacher pets and class clowns at the same time, and are kind of constantly torn between those two roles. Teacher pets because their Ti seeking tends to be very active and very obvious. Class clowns because with their fused Fe and Ne they just can't help themselves and will chase anything and everything new and cool. They try to respect protocols and institutions (Te role), it's just that it's always only a matter of time before they jump over Si and do some faux pas.
And then, they almost always get away with it. My colleagues pretty much always makes excuses for them, because yeah, they are so adorable and they did mean well, and it's not their fault.
And then the cycle goes on forever because they have a really really hard time taking anything seriously long enough or at a deep enough level. Ni polr just won't collapse.

NeFe jumpers don't get all those second chances. Most of time, at least half of teacher room just hate them, while the other half kind of love/hate them,They are neither teacher pets nor class clowns. They simply would never. Their Fe agenda is too delineated and pseudo-discriminating to allow that. They are more like troubled troublemakers, and that's the image they cultivate. They are not stoically detached like non jumping NeTi, but they are still N dom and they are still pretty aloof, and they are way better than non jumping NeTi at turning this into some kind of Fe advantage, which often manifests as an aura of being "too cool for school".
They never really belong to any group (while FeNe tends to surf between all of them at once) but they somehow always manage to embark some people in whatever adventures they are on, and thus they create their own short-lived subgroups, the members of which will often end up taking the blame for them in the end. So their offense tends to be more subtle than FeNe ones (weaponized Te 6th will find loopholes and will abuse them) but they also tend to have more immediate impact and do more collateral damage (Se role).
One of my colleague used to call one of them a "war submarine" and that fits pretty well : always trying to stay under the radar, while always keeping everything on his own radar, and well armed with radioactive weapons. They don't dig or swim that deep, but they don't surf either.
Also, once the shit hits the fan, unlike FeNe, they tend to take things very seriously, dead seriously actually, in part because of the combination of Te 6th and Se role. Once you reach that stage, or get them into one on one conversation, they 'can be somewhat similar to TeNi.

Allie is not that. Not by a long shot.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:33 pm**

Roshan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:28 pm Fe vultology article.

To the extent that they are accurate, I suspect a lot of the mechanisms Auburn describes for Fe's controlling instinct and the dynamics of the room (as it were) are absent or different for FeNe, because it's the tool--Si or Ni--that gives them their shape, not the Fe itself.

I see Fe as unbounded and as encompassing as much 'nature' (human or otherwise) as possible, so existing primarily in space, whereas Si and Ni are more, longitudinal as they go down the tunnels of time. I do see Fe kind of like the expansive sea ('the Fe swim') and so it's kind of like the water goes through a hose and then spurts out focused into Ne or Se to irrigate...something.

But FeNe lacks the hose.

I think.

Well, i think that's pretty accurate.
The FeNe students i was talking about in my previous post hardly control anything, let alone direct it. Sure they are always reading the "dynamics of the room" and they keep track of any of their classmates reactions, but it's never just the room. They are also and at the same time trying to read the teacher's mind, and part of their mind is out the window already.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:47 pm**

Anthony wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:27 pm Energetically, however, he struck me almost immediately as very Je and not Te dominant; it was hard to not see Te role for him with all of his karate-chop gestures, and concerning his 'Integral Studies,' the attempt to adorably 'sell' the Si stories/traditions by conceiving of them as instructional sTEps, and from frame, providing instances of them in already within the 'the culture we all love' ("those Star Wars movies that we all love to watch" and so on).

One can argue that Peterson, as TeNi, does a similar thing^^^, but I think it's more of a consequence of JePi (or JePe) in general, and I think it also applies to Alexander and wouldn't if he were NeTi.

Well, speaking of Integral Studies and stories, when he tries to summarize it, the first thing Allie said is "long story short". And the thing is, an actual NeTi, probably even a NeFe jumper, would be pretty unlikely to just conflate theory and story like that. And Peterson, as Si polr as he is, would certainly not do that either. No NT would imo.

Also"long story short" in itself could be a motto for jumping over Si.

With respect to his viewers, Alexander seems to first and foremost ingratiate himself by establishing common ground through the Fe swim ("what we all love"), and then proceeds to use that common ground to reveal its Si stories and what we can learn from them, stuff directly in our past (plucking the strings of our nostalgic hearts), which of course are obviously meaningful (based on the fact that we love them), and this opens up a 'whole NEw world' [of boundless Ne] from which we can reevaluate postmodernism.

Yes, and such a reevaluation is very unlikely to ever emerge out of that, because this "common ground" is never really solid enough to actually be a ground. It's a sea, and those stories are and will always be fictions, and from one "long story short" to the next, they will never collapse or coalesce into actual collective narrative or into actual myths. And that's.... exactly what postmodernism is all about.

edit : there is more i wanted to reply to but it's late already and i better go to bed.
tbcd tomorrow.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:15 pm**

Vincent wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:20 pm
Roshan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:53 pm And they form my impression of NeFe jumpers but admittedly two is a very poor statistical sampling.
My own statistical sampling is a bit larger but it's a pretty selectively biased one, since it comes mostly from the classroom.

The thing is i get both types of alpha NF jumpers as students on a semi-regular basis, and from my teacher's perspective, they both feel very differently.

I'll try to highlight some of the differences because i think they echo pretty well what is discussed in this thread so far. (And if i get any of those next year, i'll make sure to make some "over the rainbow" posts about it).

Obviously there is some degree of similarity between the twos. Tthey both tend to have ADHD diagnosis, they are both very distractible and can't sit still and they both tend to run into trouble at school from an early age (which is often the primary reason why they end up in vocational highschool to begin with),

Well, the two yoga teachers were probably dualized. If not, very close to. The Hare Krishna one was probably married to an SiFe creative and the kundalini one, a gay male, set up the studio with a probably SiFe creative woman too. It seems that in the world of 'trippy' yoga they found a place that, with a dual at their side, they could be both distractible and sit still. After all that's a LOT of what the Hare Krishna kirtans AND the kundalini exercises are: you're literally sitting, but by chanting in the former and doing say bounces with pelvic contractions and breath work (and sometimes chanting too) you get the psychedelic experiences. OFTEN kundalini exercises take place in seated positions. So there they both were, dualized and sitting, disciplined and tripping.

Typically, FeNe students manage to be both teacher pets and class clowns at the same time, and are kind of constantly torn between those two roles. Teacher pets because their Ti seeking tends to be very active and very obvious. Class clowns because with their fused Fe and Ne they just can't help themselves and will chase anything and everything new and cool. They try to respect protocols and institutions (Te role), it's just that it's always only a matter of time before they jump over Si and do some faux pas.
And then, they almost always get away with it. My colleagues pretty much always makes excuses for them, because yeah, they are so adorable and they did mean well, and it's not their fault.
And then the cycle goes on forever because they have a really really hard time taking anything seriously long enough or at a deep enough level. Ni polr just won't collapse.

NeFe jumpers doesn't get all those second chances. Most of time, at least half of teacher room just hate them, while the other half kind of love/hate them,

That's another thing. I found them both very unlikable and it wasn't because they were my contraries. It seemed to boil down to their being obsessed with authority (while wanting to appear oh so egalitarian) and my realizing they could not hear me. For one thing no one was an individual to them really; for another, they were megalomaniacal in some way. It's not that they weren't 'very nice', but in retrospect without the duals I could see either of them carving out a career in the underworld. Not heavy duty, but like dealing drugs or fencing stolen goods or running bad checks or something. Shifty, resourceful, and .very self-interested

They are neither teacher pets nor class clowns. They simply would never. Their Fe agenda is too delineated and pseudo-discriminating to allow that. They are more like troubled troublemakers, and that's the image they cultivate. They are not stoically detached like non jumping NeTi,

No, they most definitely were not stoically detached. It was an odd combination of too enthusiastic--at times quite gushing but that always seemed forced--and authoritarian. As I said there was a rigidity to them. Maybe teachers just don't like them because they feel they are the authority, not the teacher.

but tthey are still N dom and they are still pretty aloof, and they are way better than non jumping NeTi at turning this into some kind of Fe advantage, which often manifests as an aura of being "too cool for school".

But maybe not to cool to grow up and run a super cool school with a dool. (Though I have to say the word 'grow up' is a stretch...)

They never really belong to any group (while FeNe tends to surf between all of them at once) but they somehow always manage to embark some people in whatever adventures they are on, and thus they create their own short-lived subgroups,

Which with a dual could become long-lived.

the members of which will often end up taking the blame for them in the end. So their offense tends to be more subtle than FeNe ones (weaponized Te 6th will find loopholes and will abuse them) but they also tend to have more impact and do more collateral damage (Se role).
One of my colleague used to call one of them a "war submarine" and that fits pretty well : always trying to stay under the radar, while always keeping everything on his own radar, and well armed with radioactive weapons. They don't dig or swim that deep, but they don't surf either.

Which neither does Hare Krishna with a vinyasa yoga component or kundalini. And oh, the parties...
Also, once the shit hits the fan, unlike FeNe, they tend to take things very seriously, dead seriously actually, in part because of the combination of Te 6th and Se role. Once you reach that stage, or get them into one on one conversation, they 'can be somewhat similar to TeNi.

Yes, that's right. When the shit hits the fan, they are dead serious and laser focused. I mentioned early on their enhanced Te role as what gives them a distinctive flavor. Always poised to trouble shoot if the party drinks run out.

Allie is not that. Not by a long shot.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:26 pm**

What they were was con artists. Hedonistic AND authoritarian con artists, who also genuinely wanted to be liked.

739 in that order for both. 7w6 lead for both. Probably synflow not sx first for both. Yeah. Two peas in separate pods. So close and yet so far. One on Second Street, one on Seventh Street, one with a turban, one without a turban, one wearing orange, one wearing white...

Vincent

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