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Type 1 (Righteous) Wrath

Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:36 pm
by Roshan

Re: Type 1 (Righteous) Wrath

Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 5:03 pm
by Roshan
E1 Wrath (at imperfection) integrates E4 Envy (due to defectiveness) by accepting self-shame and moves to high 7. Gluttony becomes appreciation and 1 relaxes.

But 1 is still the Judge (and judged).


Re: Type 1 (Righteous) Wrath

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:15 am
by Roshan
(Righteous) Wrath between Envy and Gluttony.

Trauma victim 4 > 7.






Re: Type 1 (Righteous) Wrath

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:57 pm
by Vincent
Eric Clapton - I can't stand it.

At first i thought i would comment on this one last. It seemed so straightforward and kind of exaggerated that i didn't know where to begin and what to do with it. His lover is fooling around. He is very angry. He has every right to be. He is so angry and so right to be angry that he doesn't suppress or deny it anymore, as Ones usually do (since Anger is both their Passion and their Fear). That's it, pretty much. Pure expression of Righteous Wrath.

For a long time, i didn't know what else to say, besides the fact that it showed a failure to integrate 4, since there is no real sign of self-shame here, only burning envy and jealousy. It's all about « you ». All about how defective and wrong « You » are. With no sign that this « you » might (also) be himself, or that it might be time for him to « let his feelings show ». He is definitely the Judge here, telling « you » what is and isn't your « crime », but he hasn't integrated that he is also the Judged.

Clapton had been repeating this « i can't stand it » almost like a mantra, but it only really hit me last night after Roshan told me about Gegenstand and its philology/etymology and i read the german thread : a lot of One, so much of One is about standing (and not standing), with all its layers of depth and meaning, including the most literal ones.

First fixation after 9 fetal stage, One is born. Now it's there, physically incarnated in the world, and the One has to fight against gravity. It constantly has to stand up and against. And that's why One is so angry. That's also what the zeal and the worrying are about, and that's why One is so rigid. One is rigid to stay erect. It's always standing against, between the perpetual motion of 7 and the original Fall of 4. It's not only a fixation, it's quite literally a stance.

Another aspect of this, directly related to Gegenstand, is that One is the stage of the enneagram circle where things start to stand out. This is where the distinction between background and foreground is made, and where the platonic forms, which stand in Eternal Perfection, take shape.

I can't stand it - Lyrics :

You've been told
So maybe it's time that you learned
You've been sold
Maybe it's time that you earned

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

I'll explain
I feel like I'm being used
Make it plain
So you don't get confused

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

It's time
Time for me to let you know
Ain't no crime
No crime to let your feelings show

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

Re: Type 1 (Righteous) Wrath

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:01 pm
by Vincent
George Harrison – this song

Speaking of background, this song was written shortly after and in response to an actual trial. Harrison had been accused of copyright infringment for his song « My Sweet Lord » and found guilty of « subconsciously » plagiarizing Ronnie Mack's « he is so fine ».

Harisson's Righteous Wrath and resentment are still pretty obvious in his facial expressions and body language throughout the video and i guess the writing of the song itself could be seen as some kind of Punitive Vengeance, but if that's the case, then it's a very healthy and a pretty perfect one. The song itself is extremely upbeat, warm and light. It might be caustic but it has none of the burning coldness that usually comes with the Wrath of unhealthy or even average Ones.

Sure, the lyrics deny the copyright infringment and allude to some arguments in Harrison's defense (« this song is in E », « my expert tells me it's okay », « Could be 'Sugar Pie, Honey Bunch' – No, sounds more like 'Rescue Me'! ») but the song isn't really about putting the trial on trial and rehearsing it, like a resentful unhealthy One probably would have.

Right from the start he tells us «  This song ain't black or white». It's not really about Harisson's rightness or wrongness. It's really about « this song », as the title says. What is judged here, ultimately, is its aesthetical value : « This tune has nothing bright about it » « This riff ain't trying to win gold medals / This riff ain't hip or square, well done or rare / May end up one more weight to bear ». Harrison is neither lenient hypocritical judge nor an hyper-critical one either, as Ones can often be. He is his own musical critic and his judgement is just very sober (E7 Virtue). As Roshan pointed out, Harrison has begun to accept self-shame and he is moving toward high 7, L1 Ectastic Appreciator.

Speaking of ecstasy, the video itself is frankly pretty hilarious. It starts almost ominously with a stone fresco of Lady Justice, in all her stern, sword-bearing glory, then it quickly turns into a pretty ferocious parody of an english trial, with its gallery of ridiculous and cartoonish characters, and it ends with everybody dancing in the sacred room.

This song - Lyrics :

This song has nothing tricky about it
This song ain't black or white and as far as I know
Don't infringe on anyone's copyright, so

This song, we'll let be, this song is in E
This song is for you and

This tune has nothing bright about it
This tune ain't bad or good and come ever what may
My expert tells me it's okay

As this song came to me unknowingly
This song could be, you could be
("Could be 'Sugar Pie, Honey Bunch' – No, sounds more like 'Rescue Me'!")

This riff ain't trying to win gold medals
This riff ain't hip or square, well done or rare
May end up one more weight to bear

But this song could well be
A reason to see that
Without you, there's no point to this song

But this song could well be
A reason to see that
Without you, there's no point to this song

Re: Type 1 (Righteous) Wrath

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:20 pm
by Vincent
Sinead O'Connor - Part I

With Sinead O'Connor, my problem (or at least one of them) was pretty much the opposite one than with Clapton. There are some many things to see and say in those songs that's it feels overhelming and impossible to articulate it all.

I hesitated a lot about how to approach it and what to focus on. Video by video, and if so, in which order ? or more transversally and thematically ? I'm still not sure i made the right choice, by the way.

Anyway, i'll start by saying that i think Roshan is right about her stacking being fireside SX/so. Sinead O'Connor can seem very different from one video to the next and the horrific trauma she suffered from makes her very hard to type, but she seems to be always fierily crusading for some cause, in some way, and i really feel that sx Zeal makes sense for her.

Of the three songs Roshan posted « Fire on Babylon » is the one that most directly evokes the abuses she and her whole family suffered from her mother. At the same time, it's also the one where her Rigtheous Wrath is the most explicitly a transcendant and religious one. "Life's backward" expresses the Anger of One at the imperfection of this world in its purest form, and her wrath here is the Wrath of God burning down Babylon for its evil and its sins. This God, by the way, is definitely not the forgiving one of the New Testament and the Catholic Church. This fire, which interestingly enough isn't shown in the video itself, is a cleansing and purifying one, which bring back to mind the « heat » of sx Zeal Naranjo talked about.

In « Famine » (a title that strongly evokes E7 fear of deprivation), it's quite the opposite, in a way. This song is still very much and very explicitly about child abuse, but this time the « battered child » is Ireland and its people (« The most child-like trusting people in the Universe »), whose sufferings are « still hurting we ». God is still not a Catholic one, but it isn't an elemental agent of change ("Oh yes a change has come") nor the terrible avenging one of the Old Testament anymore. It's a pagan, pre-christian celtic Mother Goddess, and this time, it's pretty much ALL about healing and forgiveness : "And if there ever is gonna be healing/There has to be remembering/And then grieving/So that there then can be forgiving". This time the cleansing and purifying element that is shown everywhere in the video isn't Fire, it's Water. And it's not just about cleansing and purifying anymore : it's about life and the very possibility of it : there are babies in those amniotic rain drops.

The second song is significantly more positive and less reactive than the first one. In Fire in Babylon she was judging, prosecuting and calling us as eye-witnesses (« Look what she did to her son ») and she was just inviting us to watch with her the burning of the house as some sort of auto da fe. At least in Famine healing, grieving and forgiving might be possible, and she insists that the psychological damage « isn't permanent ». But Famine is still not a light song by any mean, especially compared to Harisson's song. Here self-shame (« Now look at what we're doing to each other / We've even made killers of ourselves ») doesn't quite lead to high Seven in the same way. There is some possibility of a future, if and only if « we » remember our past and go back to that Universal Mother we used to worhsip at our Holy Origin. The line to 7 is there, but it's still the dead end of escapism, as she invokes the specters of low Seven that haunt Ireland ("alcoholism, drug addiction / All desperate attempts of running") and as she asks us to witness the worst of Gluttony ("Look at all our old men in the pubs » /  « Look at all our young people on drugs"). As Roshan pointed out in the group chat, this lack of lightness certainly has a lot to do with the fact her head fix is 6w5(5w4), deep in Bardo and still looking into the Hole.

Interestingly enough, both songs were released the same year, in 1994, in the same album ("Universal Mother"). « Fire on Babylon » being the second song of the album and Famine the 13th and penultimate one. It seems to me that what's going on between those two songs isn't only a process of integration of E4 and E7, but an alchemical process, which starts with calcination and ends with the ablution, and goes from dry to wet, and from Death to Rebirth. Of course, i can't say she did this consciously and on purpose, but i still find it pretty remarkable considering E1's place in the the harmonic triad, as a Sovereign between a (gnostic) Offerer (E4) and an Alchemist (E7).

Fire on Babylon - Lyrics :

She took my father from my life oh
Took my sister and brothers oh
I watched her torturing my child
Feeble I was then but now I'm grown

Fire on Babylon
Oh yes a change has come
Fire on Babylon
Fire
Fire
Fire

She's taken everything I liked
She's taken every lover oh
And all along she gave me lies
Just to make me think I loved her

Fire on Babylon
Oh yes a change has come
Look what she did to her son
Fire
Fire
Fire on

Life's backwards
Life's backwards
People turn around
The house is burned
The house is burned
The children are gone

Fire
Fire

Fire on Babylon
Oh yes a change has come
Fire on Babylon
Fire
Fire, oh
Fire, oh

Fire on Babylon
Oh yes a change has come
Look what she did to her son
Look what she did to her son
Fire, haha
Fire, haha
Fire
Fire
Fire, aha

Fire on Babylon
Fire on Babylon

Famine - Lyrics :

OK, I want to talk about Ireland
Specifically I want to talk about the "famine"
About the fact that there never really was one
There was no "famine"
See Irish people were only allowed to eat potatoes
All of the other food
Meat fish vegetables
Were shipped out of the country under armed guard
To England while the Irish people starved
And then on the middle of all this
They gave us money not to teach our children Irish
And so we lost our history
And this is what I think is still hurting we
See we're like a child that's been battered
Has to drive itself out of it's head because it's frightened
Still feels all the painful feelings
But they lost contact with their memory
And this leads to massive self-destruction
alcoholism, drug addiction
All desperate attempts of running
And in it's worst form
Becomes actual killing
And if there ever is gonna be healing
There has to be remembering
And then grieving
So that there then can be forgiving
There has to be knowledge and understanding
All the lonely people
where do they all come from
An American army regulation
Says you mustn't kill more than 10% of a nation
'Cos to do so causes permanent "psychological damage"
It's not permanent but they didn't know that
Anyway during the supposed "famine"
We lost a lot more than 10% of our nation
Through deaths on land or on ships of emigration
But what finally broke us was not starvation
but it's use in the controlling of our education
Schools go on about "Black 47"
On and on about "The terrible famine"
But what they don't say is in truth
There really never was one
(Excuse me)
All the lonely people
(I'm sorry, excuse me)
Where do they all come from
(that I can tell you in one word)
All the lonely people
where do they all belong
So let's take a look shall we
The highest statistics of child abuse in the EEC
And we say we're a Christian country
But we've lost contact with our history
See we used to worship God as a mother
We're sufferin from post traumatic stress disorder
Look at all our old men in the pubs
Look at all our young people on drugs
We used to worship God as a mother
Now look at what we're doing to each other
We've even made killers of ourselves
The most child-like trusting people in the Universe
And this is what's wrong with us
Our history books the parent figures lied to us
I see the Irish
As a race like a child
That got itself bashed in the face
And if there ever is gonna be healing
There has to be remembering
And then grieving
So that there then can be forgiving
There has to be knowledge and understanding
All the lonely people
Where do they all come from
All the lonely people
Where do they all come from

Re: Type 1 (Righteous) Wrath

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:26 am
by Vincent
Sinead O'connor - Part II

Now about "Just like you said it would be"...

Well, first of all, what a voice ! It goes from gutty to otherwordly and ethereal in a blink and a heartbeat... Gut in heart really really makes sense for her.

Of the three songs Roshan posted, this one is probably the most sixish but it's also the one where the oscillation between 4 Envy and 7 Gluttony might be the clearest. "I will learn how to run with the big boys / I will learn how to sink and to swim". Again, One stands against and between a run (or a dance) at Seven and a fall into the Hole at Four. The song also constantly moves and blurs the line between the future ("i will" / "i would" / "it would be") and the past ("i've walked in the garden", "i said"), as she stands in Eternity between her Mama and her Lover, between the Garden and the End of the day, between Holy Origin and E-Plan (E4 and E7 Holy Ideas, respectively) .

Between these oscillations, what is always there and (eternally) present is her vision and sight : "i can see most everything" / "i can see too many mouths open / Too many eyes closed, ears closed / Not enough minds open / Too many legs open". Those "closed eyes" that can "see most everything" bring back to mind the Lady Justice of Harrison's video and the blind Goddess Themis. As the interiorized gut, One really is the discerning gut connected to the Platonic Forms, always discriminating and contrasting, always separating bakground and foreground. (btw, In "Famine" already one of the points of the song was to distinguish and remind us that "there was no famine".) The correlation with Si (and somewhat with Fi too) is very strong here. The wormhole with 5 too. But while 5 is seeking Omniscience, and preparing for it, One is kind of plagued by its own hyperlucidity. It's the Judge (and the Judged) because it's also a (disgusted) Witness, who has no choice but to see "see most everything" and would rather aspire to Serenity (E1 virtue)


Just like you said it would be - Lyrics :

I will walk in the garden
And feel religion within
I will learn how to run with the big boys
I will learn how to sink and to swim
And there's talk in the houses
And people dancing in rings
Ah, when you close my eyes, babe?
I can see most everything
I can see most everything

It's just like you said it would be
It's just like you said it would be
It's just like you said it would be
It's just like you said it would be

I can see too many mouths open
Too many eyes closed, ears closed
Not enough minds open
Too many legs open
Tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me, do
Why isn't it why why
I don't see why I listen, why, why

When I've walked in the garden
When I'm walking off stage
When everything's quiet
Will you stay?
Will you be my lover?
Will you be my mama?
I said will you be my lover?
I said will you be my babe?
When I lay down my head
At the end of my day
Nothing would
Nothing would please me better
Than I find that you're there
When I lay down my head
At the end of my day
Nothing would
Nothing would please me better
Than I find that you're there when I wake

Just like you said it would be
Just like you said it would be
Just like you said it would be
Just like you said it would be
Will you be my lover?
Will you be my mama?
Just like you said it would be
Just like you said it would be
Just like you said it would be
Just like you said it would be

Re: Type 1 (Righteous) Wrath

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:19 pm
by Roshan
Vincent wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:57 pm Eric Clapton - I can't stand it.

At first i thought i would comment on this one last. It seemed so straightforward and kind of caricatural that i didn't knew :hmmf: Vincent, make post called Verbs, with section called 'Only first verb carries tense'. where to begin and what to do with it. His lover is fooling around. He is very angry. He has every right to be. He is so angry and so right to be angry that he doesn't suppress or deny it anymore, as Ones usually do (since Anger is both their Passion and their Fear).

Mmmmm...actually it's their Passion and Avoidance. Forget offhand what the Basic Fear is, but it's probably being imperfect, losing control, or being wrong.

That's it, pretty much. Pure expression of Rightheous :ugh: Wrath.

For a long time, i didn't knew what else to say, besides the fact that it showed a failure to integrate 4, since there is no real sign of self-shame here, only burning envy and jealousy.

Okay but, after all, One is expected to integrate 7 before 4...

It's all about « you ». All about how defective and wrong « You » are. With no sign that this « you » might (also) be himself, or that it might be time for him to « let his feelings show ».

So should we agree that anger is not a feeling?

He is definitely the Judge here, telling « you » what is and isn't your « crime », but he hasn't integrated that he is also the Judged.

Clapton had been repeating this « i can't stand it » almost like a mantra, but it only really hit me last night after Roshan told me about Gegenstand and it's Straight to the spelling post for you Vincenzo philology/etymology and i read the german thread : a lot of One, so much of One is about standing (and not standing), with all its layers of depth and meaning, including the most literal ones.

First fixation after 9 fetal stage, One is born. Now it's there, physically incarnated in the world, and the One has to fight against gravity.

Said like a true Nine, an inveterate Nine. One (no pun intended) could even argue Nine is gravity-seeking.

It constantly has to stand up and against. And that's why One is so angry. That's also what the zeal and the worrying are about, and that's why One is so rigid. One is rigid to stay erect. It's always standing against, between the perpetual motion of 7 and the original Fall of 4. It's not only a fixation, it's quite literally a stance.

Another aspect of this, directly related to Gegenstand, is that One is the stage of the enneagram circle where things starts Put another section in the verbs post for "One 's'" to stand out. This is where the distinction between background and foreground is made, and where the platonic forms, which stands :ninja: in Eternal Perfection, takes :ninja: shape.

Lyrics :

You've been told
So maybe it's time that you learned
You've been sold
Maybe it's time that you earned

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

I'll explain
I feel like I'm being used
Make it plain
So you don't get confused

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

It's time
Time for me to let you know
Ain't no crime
No crime to let your feelings show

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

Re: Type 1 (Righteous) Wrath

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:03 am
by Vincent
Thank you Roshan !
I posted and edited in my english thread.
I'll reply here when i come back from work.
tbcd.

Re: Type 1 (Righteous) Wrath

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 2:29 pm
by Vincent
Roshan wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:19 pm
Vincent wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:57 pm Eric Clapton - I can't stand it.

At first i thought i would comment on this one last. It seemed so straightforward and kind of caricatural that i didn't know where to begin and what to do with it. His lover is fooling around. He is very angry. He has every right to be. He is so angry and so right to be angry that he doesn't suppress or deny it anymore, as Ones usually do (since Anger is both their Passion and their Fear).

Mmmmm...actually it's their Passion and Avoidance. Forget offhand what the Basic Fear is, but it's probably being imperfect, losing control, or being wrong.

Ugh. I should have checked that. My bad

That's it, pretty much. Pure expression of Righteous Wrath.

For a long time, i didn't knew what else to say, besides the fact that it showed a failure to integrate 4, since there is no real sign of self-shame here, only burning envy and jealousy.

Okay but, after all, One is expected to integrate 7 before 4...

Yes indeed...and he doesn't seem to do that either here.
Rereading myself i realize that talking about a "failure to integrate 4" sounds like an unreasonable expectation.
Maybe it would have made a bit more sense if i had indeed presented Clapton last (and compared it to "This song", as i initially intended to.


It's all about « you ». All about how defective and wrong « You » are. With no sign that this « you » might (also) be himself, or that it might be time for him to « let his feelings show ».

So should we agree that anger is not a feeling?

No, of course anger is a feeling.
But my impression was that this line referred to more heart-centered feelings here. And in a way he does more than letting it show here. He hammers it that a Judge's gavel.


He is definitely the Judge here, telling « you » what is and isn't your « crime », but he hasn't integrated that he is also the Judged.

Clapton had been repeating this « i can't stand it » almost like a mantra, but it only really hit me last night after Roshan told me about Gegenstand and its philology/etymology and i read the german thread : a lot of One, so much of One is about standing (and not standing), with all its layers of depth and meaning, including the most literal ones.

First fixation after 9 fetal stage, One is born. Now it's there, physically incarnated in the world, and the One has to fight against gravity.

Said like a true Nine, an inveterate Nine. One (no pun intended) could even argue Nine is gravity-seeking.

Guilty as charged... And yes, that sounds absolutely right to me.

It constantly has to stand up and against. And that's why One is so angry. That's also what the zeal and the worrying are about, and that's why One is so rigid. One is rigid to stay erect. It's always standing against, between the perpetual motion of 7 and the original Fall of 4. It's not only a fixation, it's quite literally a stance.

Another aspect of this, directly related to Gegenstand, is that One is the stage of the enneagram circle where things start to stand out. This is where the distinction between background and foreground is made, and where the platonic forms, which stand in Eternal Perfection, take shape.

Lyrics :

You've been told
So maybe it's time that you learned
You've been sold
Maybe it's time that you earned

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

I'll explain
I feel like I'm being used
Make it plain
So you don't get confused

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart

It's time
Time for me to let you know
Ain't no crime
No crime to let your feelings show

I can't stand it
You're fooling around, I can't stand it
You're running around, I can't stand it
You're fooling around with my heart