Ken Wilber

[Roshan]

hmmm....so as you can see on Rebel Wisdom's facebook page,, on July 13 and 14, David Fuller posted a substack piece "What Happened to Jordan Peterson?" and a video with Ken Wilber disserting on what happened to Jordan Peterson (twice).

I don't think anything happened to JP that the seeds weren't very much there for when RW kicked off (and I made a comment there to that effect), given the direction things took with the lockdown and trans craze and so on, as well as his and his wife's brush with death. I find the whole thing rather petty; it seems as though Fuller feels sheepish having de-miraged from JP and thrown in his lot largely with the Empire during the pandemic, and is trying (Ne PolR-ishly) to get closure on the entire RW project for himself, by picking away at JP.

But be that as it may, what is Wilber's ct?

Not that the video on RW's fb page is an optimal one to type him, as he was sick for a long time and is now both old and prematurely aged. But I'm guessing people are familiar enough with him to access their own materials? If not, I can provide some kind of overview.

He is one of the most category slap-happy people ever. His 'theory of everything' is boxes upon boxes. Is he like an Si-possessed ENTP creative subtype or what? Something in the 'qualia' feels like it doesn't add up? And also just his outlook--like it's too triumphalist and monumental for alpha, could be delta? Or is it (was it) 'just' NeTi in gamma shadow with a mania to 'boil everything down'? Remember the dark, brooding image he cultivated....?

Or perhaps something else? It's hard for me to see him as anything but alpha or delta since his theory seems based on continual progress to something or other utopian, with a relative obliviousness to the 'creative destruction' of Se/Ni.

[Vincent]

Is he like an Si-possessed ENTP creative subtype or what? Something in the 'qualia' feels like it doesn't add up?

That's where i was at with him last time i looked into him, but i agree it doesn't seem quite right.

And also just his outlook--like it's too triumphalist and monumental for alpha, could be delta? Or is it (was it) 'just' NeTi in gamma shadow with a mania to 'boil everything down'? Remember the dark, brooding image he cultivated....?

Or perhaps something else? It's hard for me to see him as anything but alpha or delta since his theory seems based on continual progress to something or other utopian, with a relative obliviousness to the 'creative destruction' of Se/Ni.

I definitely agree that any Ni/Se type is going to be an Vincenthard sale. I would be suprised if he turns out to NOT be alpha/delta.

I'll look into him again soon. One thing i can already say though is that, club-wise, he seems quite markedly NT.
And there is no such beast in delta quadra, except for TeNe and NeTe jumpers.

Ti polr seems pretty much impossible for him and jumping over Si doesn't seem to make much sense either, but Ni polr might, actually. After all his system is designed in such a way that it excludes right from the start the very possibility of anything like actual doom.

tbcd.

[Roshan]

Okay, so here's the video for future ease of access. I just saved a draft pending rewatching it but for now I have to say: @12'06" What is that? Where does he get those statistics? 25 to 28% of the population moved to green but only 0.5 to turquoise? wtf. And Fuller won't ask him either.

[Vincent]

Okay, so here's the video for future ease of access. I just saved a draft pending rewatching it but for now I have to say: @12'06" What is that? Where does he get those statistics? 25 to 28% of the population moved to green but only 0.5 to turquoise? wtf. And Fuller won't ask him either.

Yes, i noticed that too. It's insanely specific, and it sharply contrasts with the fact that pretty much everything else he says is very very general.

I'm not done with that video yet, but i can't help but notice that a lot of what he says in the first half echoes what i said here about revolutionary TeSis.
It's just a whole lot of "one day" and "not yet".
Everything is at this or that sTagE, and all you need to sound like you have a theory is a terminology.
I mean, it's not that different from those marxist caporals talking about this or that Fellow Traveller who finally went full Bourgeois after having been a SocDem for years but oh so sadly never found his way to the Party of the True Revolution, and debating to determine if he is just an Vincent article Useful Idiot or an actual Class Traitor.
His stuff is more colorful, and sounds "nicer",but structurally, it's very similar.

Overall and so far, his worldview seems delta over alpha to me. Everything is vertical, tiered and laddered, and despite all the talk about integrating lower stages into higher ones, even the most basic understanding of "as above so below" seems missing.

tbcd.

[Roshan]

Well, in my draft I wanted to clarify what I meant when I said

I don't think anything happened to JP that the seeds weren't very much there for when RW kicked off (and I made a comment there to that effect)

.

My comment under the Wilber video on fb says: Sorry but in what universe is JP alt right? He's just reacting to bizarre, unprecedented trends in the modern liberal/left landscape in totally predictable ways for a pragmatic conservative.. My point is that nothing really happened to Peterson ideologically; he just developed--because something did happen to 'green'.

I then went on in my draft to say how genuinely annoying I find the use of 'alt right' by Wilber for Peterson's supposed change, and that I can't quite shake that it's a delta viewpoint. Despite Wilber's panoramic historical/anthropological system, when it comes to the daily NEws , he sure does seem to swallow the liberal jargon wholesale. To an extent that's already more delta than alpha. But what actually happened is that green went 'alt'. It went 'alt left' and Peterson decided to fight just to hold ground.

But Wilber just doesn't seem to be able to conceive, despite all the problems with green he so readily acknowledges Peterson always had to contend with, that green could go from out of whack to just plain whacko. And somehow this rankles with me as ESTJ > ENTP. Why? Because 'you don't want to violate the protocol'.
'Green' can't really go 'alt', it's not 'supposed to'; it must be 'orange' who did that.

It seems as though, at the caliber of a Wilber, you would still see some vestige of alpha cyclical time if he were NeTi, though who knows? NeTi can get very Si-constipated. But I find it hard to shake this.

In any case, if Wilber's ENTP he's Fuller's supervisor and if he's ESTJ, he's his contrary and they're meeting over a mission: to absolve themselves of fightin' Peterson so they can maintain their place in this presumptive 'post-rebel' world. And I assume Fuller sought Wilber out to fix the Peterson problem and thus clear his own name, and not the other way around.

I don't see Wilber opening up any doors to new thoughts with Fuller yet. I don't see any aha moments or any tension release. But I don't really see them as particularly contraries either. There isn't much attraction/repulsion. They act more like quasi-identicals, sort of, but SiTe is impossible for Wilber.

So that's what I was thinking before you posted Vincent but I'm really still not sure and don't see any karate chops yet either.

[Roshan]

ps Wilber is so rambling and long-winded that for a long time rewatching this I thought I might have misunderstood him, but I didn't. He does eventually say at around 38" that Peterson's content became alt right because he was seen as such and attracted such an audience.

But perhaps even more bafflingly, he insists that previous to this Peterson was seen as conservative when he really wasn't (which he was, he was always very clearly on yt a pragmatic conservative) and was trying to integrate post-Modernism (which he at the very least consciously unflinchingly and eloquently detested).

Wilber is coming off like an airhead and I'm getting seasick,or is it plane sick? Wouldn't expect this from Te frame. I suppose I would have to find something way earlier from him to compare to; if not in video then in his writing, which I've read before and is easy enough to find.

[Vincent]

But perhaps even more bafflingly, he insists that previous to this Peterson was seen as conservative when he really wasn't (he was, he was always very clearly since he became a force on yt a pragmatic conservative) and was trying to integrate post-Modernism (which he at the very least consciously unflinchingly and eloquently detested).

Well, i get the impression that WIlber can't process that Peterson was always a pragmatic conservative because, well, conservatives are supposed to be Neandertals. And smart guys like Peterson can't really be Neandertals. Can they ?
He seems to have that quiet certainty to be on the right side of History and that thinly veiled contempt for those who aren't that is so often seen in delta.

But... i'm not done watching yet. tbcd soon.

[Roshan]

There's a lot of young pictures of KW at the opening here.



On eidb there was a long thread about him. Several site poobahs knew his stuff very well and one even knew people who worked with him. DG said he was a 3 and they insisted he was a Five, and that even he himself said he was either a 5 or 7. After some time DG eventually ceded to 5.

But atm it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was a social 3/7 in either order. Seems like there's a whole lotta posing going on and always has been.

[Roshan]

Found something from before he (according to wiki) came out as having been sick for some time in 2011.This was posted in 2007. I'd really like to see something from even earlier though.

[Roshan]

hmmm...no dearth of karate chops and pointing there.

I guess that one will do.