Tori Amos

[Roshan]

...just released a song from her forthcoming album and for ME it's confirmation that my typing for her is close to the mark That was sp/SO 2w13w2-7w66w5-9w11w2. My ct for her was tentatively TeSi with found Fi, which probably would raise more eyebrows than the triple positive 2 leading E-type but Tori is high virtuosity (which correlates with Te) but she is NOT high Ni. Consider the lyrics of this new song. Seriously, where is Ni? If not TeSi, then Vincent suggested alpha quadra, which is certainly possible, but then which? All in all we need to come up with a group consensus for her E-type AND her ct because BOTH go way against the grain. People forget that integrating Twos are integrating healthy aspects of Four FIRST; while DISintegrating Twos are integrating UNhealthy aspects of Four (usually after 8 but with synflow sp 2 'cutesie' 2, 4 'me and my wallowing misery' may be immensely preferred to the aggressive vengefulness of the low 8). Anyway Tori's back in the forest. (Links to Tori Amos discussion/s on EF coming soon).

[Roshan]

Here's a link to a Tori post on EF on the sp 2 thread that shows what I mean by she's in the woods AGAIN. That post in turn has a link within the link for all things Tori.

Tori discussion resurfaces on that (link within a link) thread here. That section "ends " here.

Then this.

tbcd

(This was really why we set up the hashtag system on EF that we never really wound up using because we couldn't get it to apply to existing posts, but we better do it here.)

[Roshan]

So, obviously it's best to just read that whole thread to keep those posts in context, but those are Tori-related sections. We should shoot for consensus on the complete E-type. Now the ct we did not really go into as a group and why do I think it may be TeSi?

First of all I think she is an 'alphastolgic' Delta and not in either Se/NI quadra, so not beta or gamma. She was very comfortable in the 90s leading the grrrrls to full integration into the Delta equality economy while demanding exclusive vulvanerbility rights. She was right in the Zeitgeist, fitting like a hand in glove and moving that glove forward. Then I find her very 'judgy' and this seems very obvious in almost all interviews, but then why TeSi over FiNe? First of all, she does not seem Se PolR. Then her Ne seems absolute value; she really seems to be ABOUT innovation and that could be a healthy TeSi with fully achieved agenda. Her Ne really doesn't seem to be the tool but the goal, the mission. And in fact that realized Ne mission might be what many people think is Fi dominant--the Ne authority, earned from the virtuosity frame by using the artistic traditions (Si) and expedient personal warmth and 'sp' themes, also Si--for an oh so very vulvernable grrrr to fully and originally express herself.

Second, FiNe's are Te inferior and they are my beneficiaries, but even with her having fully developed inferior Te and me having jumped over Te in that it requires a context for it to predominate, I don't see me mentoring her with Te. Ever. She seems to know exactly what goes where, when, and how. What she is missing is the why.--the existential why--and that seems to be how we wound up with that good song and horrible video Trouble's Lament. Tori is and always has been exceedingly pedantic, which both Te and Fi can be, but the older Tori seems to sort of go in and out of fairy tale and litigious modes, which really doesn't seem Fi frame to me. I'm going to rewatch this stuff and try to articulate this better. But one thing is basic to me atm--and shout out here to Vincent--Te can be and often manifests as virtuosity.

Now when there is virtuosity in a field like music, when a young child had the good fortune to be exposed to music and given an instrument and they took a shine to it, that Te virtuosity is going to amplify and achieve the FI in its back pocket. So Te frame can be very creatively expressive, especially in the architecture of music. Mind you I"m not arguing FOR TeSI for Tori. Just what other ct could she have and why?

[Roshan]

This popped up; I never saw it before. (Bear in mind it's NOT an official video). Things to remember about Tori: she's of Native American ancestry, her father was/is a Protestant minister, and her very conservative parents were also very supportive of her musical career, taking her to perform in local pubs at a very tender age. All of this really matters. It means she grew up with religious imagery and metaphors and their meanings as part of the daily dinner discourse; they are second nature to her. And it means she did not personally have to choose to undertake the struggles, risks and sacrifices of a musical career alone.



and then this video, which I know very well...again, not her choice of visuals....first of all synflow Two seems to drip through most of her work and second, Ne or Se PolR really seem quite out of the question. She sings to an autistic child about freedom and about her own magnificence as identifying with the big guy in the sky.

Which goes with the 'reindeer king' and is odd if you think about it, for one so grrrrl-centric, and exemplifies why I think third row N, with highly developed Ne (authoritative novelty) with pretty crappy Ni, fits.

[Roshan]

"It means she grew up with religious imagery and metaphors and their meanings as part of the daily dinner discourse; they are second nature to her.'

So for instance the line in Flying Dutchman where the grrrrl with the alligator boots tried to reach the boy but 'the other side drew her in', with its evocation of the Evil One, you will find all over the place in Tori's lyrics. Normally I would think it could be an indicator of over-binarizing 'premature Ni' in an Ni tertiary or inferior but I don't think this applies to Tori. She picked this up at dinner table talk.

[Vincent]

. Seriously, where is Ni? If not TeSi, then Vincent suggested alpha quadra, which is certainly possible, but then which?

Well, i absolutely agree that there isn't much Ni to be found.
I said "if not TeSi, then alpha" because she really can't be any beta or gamma type.

But reallly, alpha doesn't work either.
She isn't Se polr, so TiNe is out.
She isn't Te polr, so SiFe is out.
She isn't Fi polr, so NeTi is out.

She might very well be Ni polr but her Te seems way above and beyond role.
So FeSi is out too.

At this point, i'm pretty convinced that you're spot on and that she is indeed an alphastolgic TeSi with found Fi.

[Roshan]

This just popped up. News to me. The 2014 album "Unrepentant Geraldines", from which the above linked "Trouble's Lament" also comes, is..soooo pedantic Delta leading Alpha/s imo, and yes, that is her real daughter.

[Roshan]

Like I said, mature Tori seems to oscillate between fairy tales and litigiousness. The end result is 'school librarian set to music'.

And as I said on EF in regard to her lead type being not just 2 but 2wONE and low sx, it's not for nothing this vvv is the name she chose for her compilation album. Now I'm pointing to the same with her ct. TeSi creative subtype seems to make the most sense.

[Roshan]

I think she is

ESE

[Roshan]

FeSi creative subtype.

hahaha